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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
370
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Posted - 2012.08.12 04:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
chatgris wrote:
Catalyst - will remain subpar since it's got the worst damage projection, and only 2 mids.
Catalyst needs a third mid for a web. It currently sucks in almost every fight with the exception of suiciding hulks in high sec belts. These changes do nothing to make it approach the effectiveness of the Thrasher in any real combat scenario. The only advantage it had over the current coercer was the ability to fit a point. That advantage is now gone too. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
397
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Posted - 2012.08.15 14:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Up to here almost nobody is happy with these changes. I guess I would say that Coercer is already an awesome destroyer that simply doesn't have a point. With a point, it will be easily on par or better than the Thrasher over a wide range of situations.
The Cormorant will be the superior sniper ship, but nothing else. It used to be a great sniper and a good close range ship but removing the midslot hurt its abilty to control range.
The Catalyst will be the superior high sec ganker, but nothing else.
So, the wide range of destroyer roles will be filled mostly by Coercer/Thrasher, with two niches being filled by the Cormorant and the Catalyst.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
402
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Why in the world does the Catalyst have so ****** PG?
Thrasher, 70 PG. 125mm Gatling Autocannon: 1MW 3tf
Catalyst, 60 PG. Electron Blaster: 4 MW 8tf
200mm Autocannon: 4MW 9tf wth?
How is this balance? mate,next time think about what u say. light blaster pg usage does not EQUAL the pg usage of small autocannons. and your comparison is ******** : light neutron blaster II 9 pg usage / / / 200mm acc II 4 pg usage
Thrasher can fit a full rack of highest tier (200mm) autocannons and still sport a massive tank. The catalyst struggles with moderate tank and medium tier (ion) light blasters. How is that balance?
Current Thrasher is faster, longer range, more EHP*dps. Perhaps the changes in shield/armor/structure changes that equation - probably not.
Add in selectable damage type (more effective DPS especially against more Tech 2 ships), dps not susceptible to neuts (versus more vulnerable to ecm), and engagement envelope of the short range Thrasher completely covers the limited engagement envelope of the short range Catalyst. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
410
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Posted - 2012.08.17 15:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
I just think they need to give the Catalyst some engagement envelope where it can be "king" like they did with the hybrid rebalance last year for the other Gallente hulls. Unfortunately, the hybrid rebalance falls apart when you have 8 turrets on your ship.
Either range control, more damage, or more tank. It need something to make it a better extreme close range ship than the Thrasher. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
415
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Posted - 2012.08.19 23:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ashera Yune wrote:While destroyers are only get a minor adjustment, throwing off the balance.
Destroyers in numbers > All frigates in numbers. Solo frigates (all types) > Dessies (if done right)
Not a problem. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
422
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Posted - 2012.08.20 17:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The reason with the low fitting output of the Catalyst is to prevent it from totally overpowering close range encounters with overwhelming damage. Internal tests and combat we ran showed that a Ion Catalyst setup is quite fine at the moment against the other race counterparts.
*le sigh* /me going to try out ion blaster cat for a while and see what's up. I expect many deaths of my ship. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
426
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Posted - 2012.08.21 01:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Testing complete. Unless Light Ion Blaster Catalyst starts fight at zero, it is completely and overwhelmingly screwed. Sorry, CCP really needs to re-think the Catalyst. It can't kill frigs. It can't kill otherr destroyers. It is limited to high sec ganks only.
Wanted: Destroyer with relevant engagement envelope.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
432
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:364 DPS with Null Overheated. 5.4km optimal. 8.5km falloff. Once you get beyond 4km it has much better damage projection then an AC Thrasher. At 10km the Cat is still doing close to 300 DPS. An AC thrasher is only mustering 170. Laughably the Cat should kite an AC Thrasher for as long as possible should they meet.
Nice find with the setup. Thrasher controls range and has larger tank. But otherwise it looks feasible. Will try this setup next, but not hoping for best..
Edit: Compare these numbers to your Coercer with Scorch. Not close. Win for Coercer at all ranges. So now Catalyst must switch to antimatter or void and ram him. But then Coercer switches to Conflaguration. Win for Coercer.
Coercer is better at being a close range ship than Catalyst. In every single Scenario. And out to 17km. Medium Pulse Laser Coercer will be devastating. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
432
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
One way to limit Catalyst overall dps without completely gimping the ship would be to remove a low slot and give it an extra mid slot (webs). Just sayin'
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
450
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Posted - 2012.08.28 01:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's really a lost cause because mwd, scram, and "keep at range 6,000" don't work too well. No way for catalyst to control range whatsoever. Thrasher is faster and can overheat mwd, etc... |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
452
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Posted - 2012.08.28 14:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:One thing that really bothers me about destroyers is the limited amount of slots available makes it rather difficult to boost scan resolution enough to lock and shoot frigates before they burn away or warp out...
Even when frigates are dropping out of warp directly on top of you the destroyers lock so slow most frigates get away before you can start applying damage to them :o
Pinky, meet Cockbag Thrasher, Cockbag Thrasher, Pinky. The ability of the Cockbag Trasher to instapop frigs should be more than enough reason to nerf it in other areas. Instead we talk about how with perfect piloting a Catalyst can win against a Thrasher. BTW, will test out the neutron blaster cat with "strafing run" technique. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
453
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Posted - 2012.08.28 20:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm not an infamous name in Eve. I don't throw up a ridiculous number of kills every month. I'm not a chest pounder. But if you look at my killboard you'll see that I kill AC Thrashers solo quite a bit in a variety of fits. I also prefer the 125mm rail cat to the nuetron cat. In it you can strafe and beat arty thrashers whereas the nuetron cat can't unless you start on top of them. Hey man, I said I was giving it a shot! Will report what I learn soon enough. Killed a completely untanked arty Thrasher today with the 125mm rail cat. Still under evaluation.
In this first test of 125mm Cat, he didn't burn at me at 4k, he burned away. Was barely able to keep enough dps on him before he popped due to no tank. If he had a shield extender instead of an unused web the outcome would have been different. But that's fine. Will keep evaluating. I should be able to out range him and at least run him off in the future, but I was trying strafing technique and using antimatter. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
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Posted - 2012.08.30 06:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
So far fairly impressed with 125mm rail comet. Lost fight to 10MN ab fit Thrasher. LOL that a thrasher can fit 250 arties AND a 10MN AB. What a joke....
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
471
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Posted - 2012.09.05 17:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:X Gallentius wrote:So far fairly impressed with 125mm rail comet. Lost fight to 10MN ab fit Thrasher. LOL that a thrasher can fit 250 arties AND a 10MN AB. What a joke....
Well check this out: Thrasher - First to FightMinmatar sent a few of those through a minor acceleration gate first to absorb DPS. It's an impractical fit for anything else. But an MSE AND a 400mm plate - with second tier guns, a nuet, and no fitting mods! I think if I put a 400mm plate on a Cat I have to go with Electrons and still need fitting help. We won't even touch the MSe.
Catalyst can do something like this but with no point and a micro auxilliary core in the low. 7x 75mm gatling rails, and a small neut too.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
473
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here's my results:
For long range weapons:
Corm niche is super long range sniper. 105km.
Coercer and Cat long range excels at lots of dps at mid range. (Coercer seems to have the numbers on the cat). For equivalent fits it seems to me like the Cat is outpaced by the Coercer. There may be some piloting issues that make them equal, but I haven't found it yet. These ships can easily blap frigates and will eat corms alive if they are within 40km
Thrasher range niche is arty alpha. Gate camps, nanofaggotry. Needs to (and will) get shot off first to kill Cat/Coercer.
Short Range:
Catalyst sucks in real PvP. Can't project damage. Can't control range. Probably a good blob ship where the larger opponent can't cycle his weapons fast enough to kill multiple cats before getting popped. Catalyst's niche is ganking haulers with massive dps.
Coercer is awesome, can project massive damage out to long range weapon territory (125mm rails with antimatter for example). This is its true niche.
Thrasher is awesome since it is a Minmatar hull. Suffers same damage projection issues as cat but is much more versatile.
Cormorant - Better range than cat and can control range with midslots.
Otherwise, after studying this for a bit the reason they give Thrasher/Corm more PG is so they can fit a Medium Shield Extender as their minimal tank which has about the same effect as a damage control unit. These two ships can also increase their tanks by quite a bit by also installing a damage control, but at the cost of losing a damage mod. So there's a gank/tank tradeoff there.
The Cat really doesn't have that option. It only makes sense as a hull tanked or no-tanked ship. It's a clear winner in the "gank haulers" niche, and is worse than the other hulls in real pvp at short range - especially if they decide to tank their hulls (Corm, Thrasher) to allow time to control range. The Coercer just has an unbelievably long engagement range with Scorch.
So, in the end, the Catalyst can be used for real pvp and be effective. But like most Gallente hulls it will never have a clear niche vs other destroyers other than face melting dps against undefended civilians.
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And please get rid of the drone! Too much time needs to be spent for too little result.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
476
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cearain wrote:AC thashers rarely beat coercers now. The coercers current problem is dying to tracking disruptor ...
This is a problem for all destroyers. It takes good piloting of specific fits to take down a td frigate. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
477
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Posted - 2012.09.07 20:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I think the coercer had it the worst thogh.
Thrasher has a tracking bonus and it is the fastest destroyer so it had better chances.
Rail corm used to be able to fit either a mwd and web or a ab and td so it could cope a bit. I'm not sure what use a corm will be now. Like I said it seems like it is now clearly a thrasher - only worse.
Marginally worse. MWD Frig, "TD - Keep at range 18km" is almost all you need to solo all short range destroyers, and many long range dessies not using T2 long range ammo. Not advisable against groups of dessies unless you are really pro pilot.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
485
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Posted - 2012.09.15 00:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
+1. This man knows what he's talking about.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
560
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Posted - 2012.10.27 17:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:The Cormorant needs the 4th midslot a LOT more then two lowslots, because as an anti-frigate sniper, tracking is more important than damage. really don't think the Cormorant was imbalanced as it is now and fits it's role as sniper well.
But Tracking Enhancer > Tracking Computer..... |
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